How One Citizen Got Congress to Work Together on Climate Change — Jay Butera and Sam Daley-Harris

 

Airdate: November 6, 2025

Julie Rose: What does it take to have your voice heard by your member of Congress?

Jay Butera: You can't go in expecting one meeting is going to change the world. This was a long, long process of building relationships, establishing credibility and a good rapport, finding common ground.

Julie Rose: Hey, it's Julie. Welcome to Uncomfy, a show about sticking with moments that challenge us even when they're uncomfortable. And I get it, nobody likes to be Uncomfy, but I have learned from experience, and you probably have too, that sometimes a little discomfort has benefits if we can stay open and curious about it. And that's what we're here to explore, so let's get Uncomfy. Today, I'm joined by two guests: Sam Daley-Harris and Jay Butera. Now, Sam is the founder of RESULTS and Civic Courage, and he's got a book called "Reclaiming Our Democracy: Every Citizen's Guide to Transformational Advocacy." Sam Daley-Harris, welcome.

Sam Daley-Harris: Great to be here.

Julie Rose: And Jay Butera is a former businessman who retired early to devote all of his time to advocating for climate solutions. He is featured in Sam's book because of his work establishing the bipartisan Climate Solutions Caucus in Congress. Jay, welcome. It's great to have you.

Jay Butera: Thank you, Julie. Great to be here.

Julie Rose: Now, as we tape this conversation, the government has been shut down for three weeks and counting because neither Democrats nor Republicans have enough votes to get their way, and they seem unable or unwilling to compromise. Many Americans, and I count myself in this group, are frustrated with the lack of bipartisanship towards solving the country's biggest problems, so, Jay, your success getting an equal number of Republicans and Democrats to join a caucus dedicated to climate solutions of all things gives me a huge amount of hope, um, and I'd love to start there. So, I know this goes back about 10 years, but the caucus is still alive and kicking. In fact, it's, it's recently been reconstituted with 28 Republicans, 28 Democrats, exactly equal, and the fact that it even still exists is pretty astonishing, honestly. So, take us back to the beginning. How did this come about for you, Jay?

Jay Butera: Well, the origins of me going to Washington and trying to work on this issue go way back, um, but early on I thought that a non-confrontational approach would be a better way forward, and it didn't seem like going with an adversarial, uh, approach to an issue was really working, and, uh, in, climate change was a very polarized issue at the time, and so I thought if only we could get Republicans and Democrats to sit together and, and talk civilly about the issue, maybe it would start to break down these barriers between the two that were preventing conversations and, uh, preventing progress.

Julie Rose: So, what was the first challenge you encountered as you set out to just try to get people from both parties, you know, members of Congress to just sit down and talk about this issue?

Jay Butera: The first challenge was, uh, finding a Republican member of Congress who would step forward, and

Julie Rose: it was, uh, almost laughable in the beginning. Um, as Sam mentions in his book, uh, people sort of laughed at the concept of this and were sort of saying, "Well, good luck with that."

Jay Butera: It took almost three years to find that first Republican who was willing to say, "Yes, I will form this caucus, uh, in Congress with a Democrat, and we'll start this bipartisan adventure."

Julie Rose: Almost three years of "no's", so,

Jay Butera: three years of "no's".

Julie Rose: I mean, I was gonna ask you how many "no's", but I'm sure, like, you probably knocked on just about every door in Congress, 400 some folks.

Jay Butera: Yes, I tried to narrow it down by figuring out which districts had Republican members of Congress where the impacts of climate change were the, the greatest, and figuring that those members of Congress might be more likely to be brave and step forward on climate change.

Julie Rose: So, you settled actually your initial efforts on Florida,because many constituents are saying, you know, across political ideology are saying, "Look, we're losing our shoreline. We're having storms that are being affected," all, you know, they were feeling the effects of, of climate change. Sam, pick up the story here, um, what, you know, in terms of, like, what it took for Jay to finally get a "yes" from a congressman from Florida, actually to be the kind of inaugural Republican on the committee.

Sam Daley-Harris: If I could, uh, actually underscore the Uncomfy aspect of Jay's story, the book is about transformational advocacy, not transactional — sign the petition, transaction complete — but where you're trained, encouraged to do things as an advocate you never thought you could do, like meet with a member of Congress and bring them on board to your issue, and when you succeed, you see yourself differently; that's the transformation. That was what Jay, when he was getting laughed at, uh, "Good luck with that," was trying to do, do something that no one saw was possible. So, he was really engaged in that transformational advocacy, uh, in, in the work that he was doing.

Julie Rose: Jay, how did you even have access to, I mean, there are a lot of folks out there who are like, "Well, sure, I'd love to do more than sign a petition. I send an email to my member of Congress, but the person I'd really like to reach is the speaker of the house, and I don't live in his state or his district. They're not gonna take a meeting with me," right? Like, how do you, how, how did you even get yourself to a place where you could have access?

Jay Butera: Right, so, in the beginning, I knew that, uh, it would be good to have more than just me going to Washington asking, uh, members of Congress to do this, so I began to solicit on, on social media to get people to come to a website, sign a letter that I would then deliver to Washington for them, and so they would go there, they would make their statement, I would hand deliver these letters to Washington, at first focused in Pennsylvania where I live, then it, that began to give me a little bit of credibility in other states where people were asking me to deliver letters to their members of Congress, so that's kind of how it started.

Sam Daley-Harris: If I could interrupt, he's, there was a horrifying moment in that exercise where Jay was delivering these letters to all these offices. He delivers a letter, walks out into the hall and realizes he gave them the wrong letter. He goes back in to exchange the letter, and the person at the front desk has to fish it out of the trash basket. I mean, he was gone for a half a minute, and it was already thrown away, and I think he gets a realization at that moment that you're gonna have to go a little deeper than that, uh, as a precursor to what he eventually would do with the Climate Solutions Caucus.

Julie Rose: So, what was the pivot, Jay, then? You, next time you knocked on the door to try to get a meeting, and, and the staff is probably thinking, "Oh, it's the letter guy who's got the climate letters," what, what did you do next that proved more effective?

Jay Butera: Well, um, it's kind of remarkable how much access you can have in the halls of Congress, um, if I knew a member of Congress was on a certain committee, I would find out when the committee was meeting, and I would go to the committee meetings, and as they adjourned, I would walk with that member of Congress through the halls and talk to them at the time, so just sort of trying to work my way in.

Julie Rose: I mean, this is a full-time job, it sounds like, for you. You, you,

Jay Butera: it was full-time. I, I did this, uh, full-time, you know, seven days a week

for,

Julie Rose: wow, 

Jay Butera: for a decade.

Sam Daley-Harris: If I could, uh, jump in with a story that, from this period, uh, uh, one of the Republicans in Congress flies down with President Obama, uh, with regard to Earth Day or, uh, climate activities, and this,

Julie Rose: and this is a Florida, this is a Florida representative,

Sam Daley-Harris: Yes, that's right, but anyway, a fifth-grade teacher gets all the fifth graders in her school to write letters to the congressperson, uh, to thank him for his commitment on this issue, and she tells Jay about it, and Jay says something like, I don't know if you wanna take this story over, "Have the congressperson come to the school to accept the letters." I don't know if you wanna finish that story.

Julie Rose: So, you invited, you invited the teacher, "Hey, don't just send these letters to the congressman. Ask the congressman to come get them in person in his district at this school." And did that happen? Was that effective?

Jay Butera: That, that did happen, and that was an important moment for Congressman Curbelo, I think. It's hard to hear from 200 fifth graders, uh, without being moved by it. But in terms of mobilizing constituents, it was just me at the time, and so part of what I did in South Florida was to, uh, form a chapter for Citizens Climate Lobby, so I went to Miami and I would stand in front of Whole Foods figuring that might be a good, uh, clientele and hand these flyers out, and, lo and behold, we conducted this preliminary meeting and about 15 or 20 people showed up, and that, uh, was a little bit uncomfortable for me to do that, but I didn't have any other way to meet, uh, the relevant people, you know, just ordinary citizens.

Julie Rose: Can you describe the meeting or the moment where you realized like, "Oh, I've got this, this representative."? It was Carlos, what was the last name? The Florida,

Jay Butera: Carlos, yes, it was Congressman Carlos Curbelo.

Julie Rose: Okay. Republican in Florida, so what, what was the moment when you realized, "I got him. Like, okay, this caucus is gonna start going."?

Jay Butera: So, I started, uh, talking to Congressman Curbelo and his staff on his swearing-in day, and I, his district stretched from Miami to Key West, so about the most vulnerable, uh, location in the United States to climate impact.The moment, um, when this pivoted, it, It evolved over many steps. Um, we put together a letter of 55 leaders from South Florida, mayors Chamber of Commerce presidents, scientists, university presidents, all asking for action on climate change. That had an impact on Congressman Curbelo, and so with all that groundwork laid, um, there was a day when this did pivot because I was in his office and I said, "I want to form this bipartisan caucus, and I have a Democrat who's willing to start the caucus, but we're only going to do it, uh, with the balance of Republicans and Democrats, balanced one for one," and he said, "Yes, I'll do it." I almost couldn't believe it after all that time. It, it shocked me, and I remember walking out of the, uh, the house office building at that evening and walking across the plaza in front of the Capitol, headed back to the train station, and, you know, the setting sun was lighting up the, the dome of the Capitol, and it was an emotional moment. I thought, "Gee, it is possible to make some change happen here." I was really energized by that moment.

Julie Rose: I mean, it's deeply inspirational, but, Jay, I guess if I could ask you this kind of pointed question, which is, like, what good actually came of it, or has come of it, if we, we haven't had major climate legislation, and, you know, in, in, in, in many regards, you could say that some of the things, steps that had been taken during one presidency have been rolled back during another, and, you know, there's just an awful lot of, uh, back and forth on this issue. So, like, did it, did it even accomplish anything, in your mind? Has it yet? What, what would it take for this to actually lead to the outcome that you are hoping to see?

Jay Butera: Well, there might be two parts to that answer. One is, um, "What did it do for climate change policy?" And then the other is, uh, "What has it done for congress?" And I look at the fact that this caucus still exists. It's still bipartisan. It's still taking action measures on climate policy and trying to influence policy in today's climate. Uh, I think that's a win, uh, for keeping some civility in Congress and keeping some bipartisan discussions alive, and it's almost ironic when I think of it that climate change is the policy where bipartisanship is still happening because it was about the most partisan, polarized, uh, issue when, when I began working on it, so I think that's good for government, governance. In terms of what it did for climate, the list of initiatives, you know, many things happen in Washington that are small steps. Uh, it's not always just introduce one big bill and everything gets solved, and so over the years that I was involved with the Climate Solutions Caucus, we took dozens of smaller steps, supporting policies, expressing the caucus's opinion to the president of the United States on things like whether or not they should stay in the Paris Climate Accord, a lot of small steps like that are what, what build policy, the, the foundations for policy, so that's sort of how I look at it, and, uh, there's a pretty long list of things, and even in today's news, the caucus is still speaking out, uh, still tried to moderate the devastation of climate policy in some recent bills. I mean, whether or not it's successful, it's not, certainly not as successful as you would want, but they're fighting for it.

Sam Daley-Harris: For anyone listening to this and wondering, "I still don't get how you do this," uh, one of the tools that I use, and Jay did a reverse engineering of it, when I'm coaching a group that's meeting with a member of Congress who opposes their bill, I have them ask three questions. Question one: "We know you don't support this bill or issue, what would it take to change your mind?" And you're listening for assignments, which is something Jay did very well. "What would it take to change your mind?" Two: "Could you say more about that?" Three: "Why do you think that is?" And it's really important to, it's basically, a deep listening exercise with an opponent, essentially, and so you're, it's a key step in building relationships, which was what Jay was all about, building relationships in any way that he could.

Julie Rose: You know, um, I will admit that I've never actually had an advocacy meeting sit down with my, with a member of Congress or their staff, but I imagine what that looks like is, "All right, guys. You finally got on their agenda, you got 10 minutes before the senator or the member of Congress has to go vote, right? Like, that's it. Uh, we're doing this 'cause you're his constituents, and he, he or she really cares about what, what the people think," right? But in my mind, I'm thinking, "I got 10 minutes to get my point across as strongly as possible," and what you're describing is, "Actually, have them talk, listen to them, find out what they need from you so that then you can go figure out."

Sam Daley-Harris: Rather than, "I've got 10 minutes," but, "This is the first 10 minutes in a long relationship building process," and so starting by listening is fine. If, if this is not gonna be one and done, then we've got some more time to really develop this thing.

Jay Butera: You can't go in expecting one meeting is going to change the world. This was a long, long process of building relationships, establishing credibility and a good rapport, finding common ground, and I think I learned from Sam on this that beginning a meeting like that by thanking this member of Congress, uh, for what they've done is very important, and that's an, starting any meeting, you know, is an uncomfortable situation, but if you start it by thanking them, it just starts, uh, to, to bring some goodwill to the table, and I think if you look at any member of Congress, you can probably find something to be grateful for, and, and that helped me a lot in terms of moving through uncomfortable situations.

Julie Rose: So, how do you, Sam Daley-Harris, then, as you work with advocacy groups and, uh, and individuals and you've got this book hoping to kind of encourage people to engage in transformational advocacy, how can you convince me that it's worth my energy considering that Jay did it full-time for three years before he even made any headway? And, and then, you know, when we think about what difference has all of that made, like, it has made a difference, but it's not like, "We fixed it," kind of a difference.

Sam Daley-Harris: Right. Well, I, I love these two quotes, they're short, and I use them. Uh, Apollo astronaut Rusty Schweickart said, "We aren't passengers on Spaceship Earth, we're the crew." Well, we either are or we aren't. If we, you know, it's we're either the crew, whether it's easy or hard. The second quote is from activist, uh, Alex Steffen, who said, " In fact, these days cynicism is obedience." Well, yeah, if I'm cynical, I'm obedient to the way things are, I'm not gonna do anything. Why would I, if nothing I do makes a difference? So, it's kind of like, "Who do you wanna be in the world: kind of a moping, 'Nothing works. I can't do anything,' kind of person or someone who goes for it and makes all the difference you can?"

Julie Rose: Sam Daley-Harris is the founder of RESULTS and Civic Courage, and he's author of "Reclaiming Our Democracy: Every Citizen's Guide to Transformational Advocacy." You can learn more at reclaimingourdemocracy.com, and we also have a link in today's show notes if you wanna get in touch with Sam. Sam, it's been great speaking with you. Thanks a lot.

Sam Daley-Harris: My pleasure.

Julie Rose: And Jay Butera is a former businessman who retired early to devote all of his time to advocating for climate solutions. He is the citizen architect of the bipartisan Climate Solutions Caucus in Congress. Jay, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

Jay Butera: Thank you.

Julie Rose: And thank you for getting Uncomfy with us today. How are you voicing your concerns or your satisfaction with the way things are going in your local government or at the state or national level? Have you had an Uncomfy moment, an experience pushing through the discomfort to try to make your voice heard? What's worked, what hasn't? Send me an email, uncomfy@byu.edu, or connect with us on social media to keep the conversation going; we are @uncomfy.podcast on Instagram. Uncomfy is a BYUradio podcast. Samuel Benson produces it, and the team includes Hyobin Kim and Sam Payne. Our theme music was composed by Kelsey Nay. I'm Julie Rose. I can't wait to get Uncomfy with you again next week.