Fighting For What You Want Without Things Getting Ugly – Alexis Morgan

 

Airdate: November 19, 2025

Julie Rose: So, last week we heard about the need for more dignity in our disagreements, but when it comes to really important political disagreement, what does that even look like?

Alexis Morgan: The sponsors of this bill really frustrate me, but if I'm gonna throw contempt their way, one, they're never gonna wanna come to the table, and two, I'm never gonna be effective at the table.

Julie Rose: Hey, it's Julie. Welcome to Uncomfy, a show about sticking with moments that challenge us even when they're uncomfortable. And I get it, nobody likes to be Uncomfy, but I've learned from experience, and maybe you have too, that sometimes a little discomfort has benefits if we can stay open and curious about it. And that's what we're here to explore, so let's get Uncomfy. Last week on the show, we featured Tim Shriver, who co-created The Dignity Index, which is a tool for learning to respond with less contempt when we disagree. It's a lot harder than it should be, I think, so I wanted to see how this could possibly work in the fray of a heated political debate, and the state of Idaho has a debate like that going on right now; it's over a new school voucher law that will let families use tax dollars to pay for private school tuition, even private religious schools. This is a debate that's happening all over the country, and as you probably know, it can get really emotional because the stakes are so high; we are talking about our children, about harming or helping them. So, I reached out to Alexis Morgan. She's a longtime education advocate in Idaho. She's past president of the state PTA. She's now Director of Public Policy for the Idaho PTA. She's also part of a new lawsuit that is challenging Idaho's school voucher program, and she's got a podcast, it's called The Purple Zone, where she has lately been talking about how The Dignity Index has influenced the work that she's doing, so I wanted to know more. Alexis, welcome to Uncomfy.

Alexis Morgan: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Julie Rose: Now, I know from your podcast that you have been participating in town hall meetings about this voucher issue that had been going on all around the state. Would you share a story, an Uncomfy moment for us from one of those meetings?

Alexis Morgan: Oh yeah, happy to. So, I would say there was a moment near the end of this whole series of town halls. I served as a moderator, so I'm helping field the questions from the audience for the panelists to answer, and there was a gentleman who stood, he was an older gentleman, and it was very obvious to me that he was frustrated, and so he asked his question, the panelists answered, and they did a nice job, and he stayed through the entirety of the town hall meeting. When it was over, he came up to me afterwards, which is not uncommon, there's quite a few people who come up to me afterwards and have questions or they want to follow up or what have you, so he came up to me and he kind of launched right back in to what he had to say.

Julie Rose: Was he on the opposite side of this issue from you? I mean, you are a, you're an opponent of the voucher program.

Alexis Morgan: Yeah, he was, he was supportive because he's frustrated with the public school system, so he's saying, "The public school system is no good, so I like the idea of having vouchers." So, as he started talking with me, for me personally, I don't view this as a personal attack. He's frustrated with the public school system to which I did not create, I'm simply a part of, and I can agree with him that it does need to be improved. So, I chose in that moment, um, and it's tough sometimes because our hearts can race, we can feel like our palms are getting sweaty, uh, it can feel uncomfortable, but as he was talking and I just was listening to him, I thought to myself, "This is a man who is legitimately frustrated," and so when he was done saying what he had to share, and it was obvious to me that he wanted to have a conversation, I found a thread in his story that I thought might help create a bridge between he and myself, uh, or him and myself, and so I, I kind of tugged on that thread, took him on a journey that connected him with me, told him about my grandfather who had come over from Germany in 1914. He was 17, he got here, World War I broke out, and eventually that story took him to when my grandfather had kids, and he wanted to take his kids back to that German education system to show his children how much, how incredible that system was. And when he took my dad back to that system, he was frustrated; he didn't see what he had experienced as a child. And I watched this man, as I kind of conveyed something that was personal for me, soften. And I said to him, "My grandfather experienced something that you're describing and that I've experienced, and that we all experienced this education system, and when we were kids, we look back on that with fondness, and we want a great experience for our kids." And so that conversation then ended with me thanking him for his perspective and that it's needed at the table as is mine, so that we can work through the conversation. Not find something shiny and new, but really dig into how we can fix this and help improve this system that is actually really thriving in Idaho. And I told, and I told him I hoped I could see him later, and he felt the same, so it was really awesome, actually.

Julie Rose: Yeah. Tell me a little more about kind of what you think was going on underneath the, the surface there. When he approached you, how antagonistic did you feel like he was when he came up to you, and did you feel like you had to brace for that a little bit?

Alexis Morgan: Um, I feel like during the session of the Q&A, I had prefaced it with, "I wanna share something with the community, all of you sitting here, that's important to me. I wanna share that dignity is really important to me, that we're all human beings, uh, that we all have value and we all think about that differently, whether there's a divinity in our lives or whether we are connected to the earth and we're all human beings, and so I just ask that we treat each other as such." So, I think kind of, like, straight outta the gate, that bar had been set, and people in the audience saw that I worked really hard to offer kindness to people who thought differently than me. And my job as a moderator isn't to be bias one way or the other, that's not how I viewed myself, but more of a, a facilitator in the conversation. And so, when he came up to me afterwards, I mean, I've had a lot of experiences with people coming up to me, and it's very obvious straight out of the gate that they're frustrated. Um, I've had to end conversations before with a, "At this point, you're criticizing me, and I'm not interested in continuing this conversation. " Um, so I felt like this gentleman in particular, he was frustrated, he wanted to prove his point, um and from my perspective, people like that often just need to feel heard and validated. And it was obvious he needed that a couple of times.

Julie Rose: I love this picture that you're painting of, I mean, you had tried to set the stage really clearly with this whole room that, "We know this is emotional. Everyone feels very strongly, and we're also going to honor each other's dignity, which of course takes us to The Dignity Index, um, and you have apparently had quite a bit of practice 'cause I, I honor how well you were able to handle that moment. I think I would've been, knowing that, assuming that he knew that I'm part of this lawsuit and that this is where I stand on this, and, "Oh gosh, now he's coming up to me and he's, you know, and he's kind of, he's, he's maybe a little agitated," like, it would be really hard for me not to mirror that and feel like I needed to either bail out or, uh, try to convince him otherwise, you know? So, all of that to say, I'm impressed. And how, how did you come to this? How did you discover The Dignity Index?

Alexis Morgan: Yeah, thanks for the question. So, I would say The Dignity Index, uh, I was introduced to it a year and a half ago actually at the national, uh, PTA Ledge Con over in Washington DC. One of the co-creators, Tami Pyfer, was there to give a presentation. It's a legislative conference, and so it's an opportunity to learn about different legislative components and how that's gonna impact education, but also just how to be, like, more informed, how to engage in these conversations. And as I sat and listened to Tami, what I felt and what I experienced was almost like a decades long journey of working through these different, uh, components and then having her frame it in a way that just really resonated with my soul, and really that journey for me started when I was a school board member of a school district, uh, here in Idaho, and I was in my, uh, master's program at the University of Idaho focusing on adult organizational learning and leadership, and I did my master's project that focused on a civility project that was centered around the community that I lived in,and so that's kind of all of, I think that practice is where this really kind of officially began for me, and I had a moment, uh, when I was a school board member. A parent came in, and they were furious with the administration, furious, and we listened and just some things fell, you know, came from that, but a couple weeks later, and I had never seen this mom before, I saw her at a dance class, and I thought, "Oh my goodness, her daughter and my daughter are in the same dance class. And is this gonna get really uncomfortable because, or really awkward, right? I'm a school board member, and she is angry with the school district," and so when the class was over, I went out to the parking lot, she went out, and I saw her, and I chose to approach her, and I said, "Hey, I recognize you," and she said, "Yeah," and at that moment, I thanked her for being a parent that cared about her kid, that wanted to come in and say something that was important to her, and she really felt seen and heard in that moment. And then as we, as I continued on a little bit, I said, "You know, I learned something really early, early on in my life that sometimes two people can have a very different experience with somebody else." And I said, "While I honor the experience that you had, and I, I believe you, I think that's what you experienced, I have a different relationship with that person and I hope that you can honor that type of relationship that I have with that person." And she said, "Yeah, I can." And I said, "And in that honoring, I'd like to help where, you know, I'd like to help you where I can." And so, it was just really cool because, like, a year later, both of our daughters were in the same kindergarten class, and I thought, "Oof, I'm really glad that I took, right, took that chance to have that conversation with her."

Julie Rose: And this was before or after you had discovered The Dignity Index?

Alexis Morgan: This was far, this was like 10 years earlier.

Julie Rose: Oh, interesting. Okay, so you were primed.

Alexis Morgan: I had that,

Julie Rose: but you had had some, because I was sitting here thinking about, you know, The Dignity Index has like the one through eight, you know, uh, one is like really contemptuous and considering the other person, I think the, uh, "They're not even human. It's our moral duty to destroy them before they destroy us." Like, that's a one, right? An eight is, "Each one of us is born with inherent worth, so we treat everyone with dignity no matter what." And just the fact that you sort of honored and thanked her for her perspective, like, immediately puts you on the dignity side of the scale, right? Like, you're six, se, 6, 7, 8, which is, like, I'm good if I can, you know, kind of stay on the dignity side consistently, even if I'm not really up there being stellar. So, um, so that's really interesting. Now, what I'd love to know is you learned about this at a, at an event, a training, a conference of, um, legislative, I guess representatives, right, for PTA, these are, uh, volunteers, parent, teacher, whatever, folks who advocate for school, often public school, and so how, like, how well was this received? Because the world that we live in, where it feels like the assumption is that you, you, you can't be nice or even, like, acknowledge or validate another viewpoint and still win politically. So, like, were you the only one in that workshop? Was everyone else like, "No way, man! This isn't for me."?

Alexis Morgan: Uh, that's so funny. No, the workshop was packed full. It was a very large room. It was packed. There was only, like, seats available on the floor. And what I've observed, I've gone to, uh, legislative conferences for PTA for parents and teachers. I've got, I've been to lobby days for, for teachers in Idaho. And what is interesting is that the leaders of these organizations are, one of the messages that they express is, "Your job is not to get in there and prove a point, your job is to make a connection, develop a relationship with them." And so what I observed in the room, because there was a long line to talk to Tami Pyfer afterwards, was that her message really resonated with the people in the room because they're trying, these, you know, parent advocates, education advocates, like, if we're just in the space of, you know, public education, they want to share that story and create that relationship, make that bridge so that there is, because we don't, we don't make connections when we throw contempt at people. And I think what, um, I'll just say, I think is a, a little bit of a distinction is that people, and, and I've heard this too, that, that people think that conflict is bad. And I don't view conflict as negative. I view conflict as the process that we need to work through to get to this beautiful thing that we can create together. And I've seen that just time and time again, people who are willing to work through that conflict, and as they're all contributing and sharing and really wrestling with tough topics, something beautiful comes out of that. and that's what I think is so profound, like, when it comes to The Dignity Index, is helping people visualize what that could look like just in their lives as they're addressing conflict that is everywhere.

Julie Rose: Okay, so let me ask you a really tricky question here, Alexis, so, uh, you learn about The Dignity Index a year and a half ago, you're all, it is already sort of in your DNA, over the last year, the Idaho State legislature is debating and ultimately passing this voucher program that you were lobbying against, vocally against, you know, advocating against, right? And you didn't win, and so now you're part of a lawsuit to try to fight that. Okay, so the question is can you win and still try to be high on the dignity scale, right? Like, has it actually gained you anything as an advocate when it comes to like wins and losses?

Alexis Morgan: I think from my perspective, things aren't always gonna work out the way that we want, and that is very evident in the political system. We see that all over the place, and now more than ever there's so much division. And there's a phrase I heard from someone once that said, uh, "We're not winning or losing; we are winning or learning, or, and/or learning." And from my perspective, one of the things that I've observed about the Idaho Legislature, and I really admire, is the decorum that is expected inside that Capitol. When they talk about, when they talk to each other, when they talk about in I, in, uh, in our Capitol when the lawmakers mention the Governor, they say, "The gentleman on the second floor. " And so as I have spoken, I, I mean, you can go back and look at conversations on my podcast, I try to make it so that, um, I'm conveying a level of dignity towards people, towards the sponsors of this bill, who, on some measure, really frustrate me. It doesn't mean I don't have feelings, does, I mean, I still get frustrated, angry, and all of those things, but if I'm gonna throw contempt their way, if I'm gonna dehumanize them, if I'm gonna call them names, one, they're never gonna wanna come to the table, and two, I'm never gonna be effective at the table. It's both of those things. And so I love that we have processes in place within our system so that we can continue to fight for the things that we care about, but we don't, and I don't think it's productive at all to dehumanize people in the process. And so, I already know kind of what comes next for me if this doesn't work out for me. I kind of have some thoughts in place already, in a way that says, "How can I work with this other side whether we get that thing that we want or not?"

Julie Rose: And you think that when all is said and done, you hope, however this turns out, however the court rules, that dignity can still be, like, a, a tool in your toolkit, or maybe it's more than a tool; it's the kind of lens through which you behave and that you can, like, maybe it's gonna be the only way you'll be able to be at the table?

Alexis Morgan: Hey, listen, I really wanna win. That's evident. Um, like, we don't, we don't wanna lose. Um, and also, I think dignity can always be there because to me, dignity is treating people with the inherent value that, that we have. We all have value, and we all have flaws. And our flaws don't take away from our value. Even if someone is not treating me with dignity, does not mean that they don't have value. It means I can be thoughtful and, yeah, strategic in, in the way that it, that I am engaging with them, and sometimes that means I need to disengage. Um, but I think it is a fallacy to think that, at some point, it's okay to dehumanize someone in the process. There's lots of people in my community, in the state of Idaho, and I know throughout the United States, that work through conflict all the time and treat people with dignity all along the way. And that's, that's all I'm trying to do. And I see people around me do it all the time, so I'm grateful for the examples of people all around me.

Julie Rose: Alexis Morgan is past president of the Idaho PTA. She currently serves as Director of Public Policy. She's an advocate for public education in Idaho, and her podcast is The Purple Zone. Alexis, thank you so much. This has been really instructive. I appreciate your time.

Alexis Morgan: Thanks so much for having me.

Julie Rose: And thank you for getting Uncomfy with us today. We've got a link to The Dignity Index in today's show notes if you'd like to dig into that a little deeper, I've learned a lot from studying it. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. Email uncomfy@byu.edu or connect with us on social media; we are @uncomfy.podcast on Instagram. Let's keep this conversation going. Uncomfy is a BYUradiopodcast. Samuel Benson produces it, and the team includes Hyobin Kim and Sam Payne. Our theme music was composed by Kelsey Nay. I'm Julie Rose. Can't wait to get Uncomfy with you again next week.