Airdate: July 9, 2025
Julie Rose: Firefighters and other first responders are there for us in our darkest hours. But what happens when the darkness comes for them?
Chris Fields: I would tell 21-year-old firefighters, "Look at this 61-year-old firefighter. There is no reason you have to go through what I did," and not just me. There's, there's thousands of us that would say the same thing. "You don't have to struggle. You don't have to wait until the wheels fall off before you reach out."
Julie Rose: Hey, it's Julie. Welcome to Uncomfy, a show about sticking with moments that challenge us even when they are uncomfortable. And I know you're probably wondering, "Why would anybody choose to be uncomfortable?" But I know from personal experience, and you probably do too, that sometimes a little discomfort has benefits if we can stay open and curious about it. And that's what we're here to explore, so let's get Uncomfy.
Julie Rose: Today, Chris Fields is with me. He spent 31 years with the Oklahoma City Fire Department, and now he works with a state agency as well as a number of different nonprofits to help first responders have these tough conversations about trauma that they experience on the job and why it's so important to seek help. I'm really pleased to have Chris Fields with me today. Welcome.
Chris Fields: Thank you. Thanks, Julie. Thank you for
having me, and welcome to all your listeners.
Julie Rose: How did you end up a firefighter? What drew
you to that as a career?
Chris Fields: Uh, this church I grew up going to, my best friend was the pastor's son, so, you know, I stayed outta trouble when you were running around the preacher's kid, but, uh, his dad was also the chaplain of the Oklahoma City Fire Department, and so I kind of grew up around, there's a lot of firemen that went to the, firefighters that went to the church, so I kind of grew up around them, got to visit fire stations with my friend and his dad when, when we was growing up. And I don't know, just the, the kind of the comradery and the, uh, I don't know, and the way the public viewed 'em and, and the things they did and all that just kind of always, always appealed to me. And, um, you know, I had really kind of put that in the back burner of my mind, life went on, I graduated high school, went to some college, and was just kind of thought, "You know what? I always loved that, the thought of being a firefighter." And so I, I tested and got on the Oklahoma City Fire Department and did about 31 and a half years with them. And I would, if my body would hold up, I'd do it all over again.
Julie Rose: And when did you start to realize that there
was more to this, maybe, that there was some tough stuff also, that, that it
was gonna affect your mental health, um, in ways that maybe you hadn't
anticipated when you were thinking about the comradery and the heroism and the
sort of, you know, masculine, like, save the day kind of stuff?
Chris Fields: And, and that's a great question,and I talk about that when I kind of travel and speak a little bit. I talk about, you know, when, um, I don't know, the, the shows, you see the lights and the sirens and running up down the road and everybody's applauding 'em and you know, they're always the heroes. And, uh, even in, when you're in rookie school, you're training, you're doing all this physical stuff, you gotta be in shape. You know, 1985, it was all about the brawn, and the John Wayne, and the, uh, bravado. But I always tell people, in rookie school, even when you're practicing and learning CPR, right? I mean, I, I, I, and I won't get graphic, but you're doing it on a, a dummy, CPR Andy or whatever it's called, and you're pushing and it's telling you if you're doing good compressions, deep enough and all this kind. My first call out of the, out of the box, first day at the station, hadn't even had my stuff on the rig an hour, and we make a full arrest, elderly gentleman. Well, first thing I do is get on compressions, and when I push down, and they tell you, "You know you're doing it right when you hear their, you, you're gonna have to crack ribs or a sternum. I mean, that's just, that's just what happens when you're doing effective CPR." So, I'm on top of this lifeless body, and I'm pushing down, I'm hearing their, their ribs crack and their sternum crack, and right then, on the way, I mean, not right then, but on the way back, once the adrenaline was gone I thought, "Wow, this is, this is real."
Julie Rose: And did you feel like you had, I mean, could
you talk about that? Did you, did you have a way to process that?
Chris Fields: No, and, and that's the thing. It was, um, and I was raised by some, I was hired in 1985, you know, uh, worked for some, what I call "grizzly old smoke eaters," and, and they're the ones that raised me in the fire service, and the ones that raised them were the same way. And it wasn't that firefighters were non-sympathetic or empathetic, or didn't have a heart, didn't have feelings. Matter of fact, I think it's just the opposite to do this job. You've gotta have all that. But they don't ever come out and say it. It's through actions. They let you know, "You gotta put that one away. I can't have you focused on that if we're in a house fire, I need you focused on this, not that." So, you learn to compartmentalize it and, and push it down.
Julie Rose: So, you talk about, Chris Fields,10 years into your career, so you're not a newbie at this point, you've responded to lots and lots of traumas, um, a really big one comes along. It's a mass fatality event. It's the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. More than a hundred people die, 168 people. Hundreds are injured. In what ways was that, I guess maybe a trigger or an instigator of kind of, like, even more challenge for you with mental health?
Chris Fields: Yeah, April 19th was like, um, something you can never prepare for. You can say you're ready for anything, take on anything, but to have that much damage. I mean, in here we make, we have tornadoes that rip through here, and we have damage and lives affected, but it's, you know, it's over here, it's over there. It's 3 miles apart, 20 miles apart. This was in a one square block area, you know, a nine-story building collapsed and 168 fatalities. And that, the fatalities don't, you know, that's 700 and something in or 500 and something injuries. So, you couldn't get away from it, and rightfully so. It was even covered in the media, rightfully so, every day. I mean, every day we, we relived it. And I say, "We," and that's not to say, you know, "Woe is us." We had it easier than the families and, and the victims of the bombing, but it was just different than any other type of call, to where a first aid call you load that patient up in the ambulance, they're gone to the hospital, you might hear a follow up, you might not. This was 168 lives that we heard every follow up. We knew, uh, the injuries and then seeing the damage every day, either on the news or in the newspaper, or responding down there and working your shift at the, at the bomb site.
Julie Rose: And on top of that, you end up in one of the iconic images of, in the media coverage, uh, of, of this bombing where you're leaving the wreckage and you're carrying a baby in your arms. She's deceased. Baylee Almon. It goes viral so far as that existed back then, but it's everywhere. It goes all the way around the world. It's on t-shirts. It's like, I imagine people are calling you up. The press wants to talk to you. So, how did that additional visibility that you had to take on affect your, your ability to, to process the grief and the trauma you'd experienced?
Chris Fields: Um, golly, it was a, it was a, I guess a whirlwind, for lack of a better term. Like I said, it went from a, you know, born and raised right here, simple little Oklahoma guy, guy, you know, and, um, found out about the photo at 11 o'clock that night. The day of the bombing is when I finally, I found out about a photo even being taken. Um, never saw it for the first time until the next morning, when it was everywhere, uh, every paper on every headline around the world. My first thought when I saw that was I thought, because there were still so many people that hadn't been found and identified and people were still waiting for their, find out their loved ones were out or in there. And my first thought was, "Man, I wonder if that family even knows," you know? I wonder if that's their first, you know, and uh, like my mom and my wife always told me, you know, "Mothers know. A mother would look at that and know that's her child," so I wondered if she even knew that, you know, the mother even knew that Baylee was deceased. And, um, I always tell people being singled out in a profession that is, you know, prides itself on teamwork and being together, and so being singled out, uh, using the word "hero" and all this stuff was just like, but I, I always tell people too, that the, the support I had from the guys and girls on the Oklahoma City Fire Department is what got me through it. And I, I struggled with the photo. I'm never gonna get away from it. It's not who I am, but it's just part of, I'm gonna be linked to that forever with Baylee and Baylee's mom, Aren. So, it was a tough process, took its toll. I, I didn't do good at it later in life, but, uh, so I don't know. We'll get to that.
Julie Rose: Yeah. Well, let's, if we could talk about that. So, what did it take for you to finally, because I know from your having told your story before that it would be another 12 years or 13, 14,before you actually received a diagnosis of PTSD related to that, but also probably, you know, a cumulative trauma of, of what it takes to be a first responder. So, so what happened to finally get you to be willing to talk to someone outside the brotherhood, right?
Chris Fields: I, um, and I'm, and I'm glad you said cu, uh, cumulative trauma because that's, I'm blessed to get my platform from the photo and from the bombing, and I know that, and it gives me the opportunity and the, uh, ability to talk about the cumulative trauma, you know, as simple as, not discounting the type of call, but as simple as doing compressions for the first time on somebody to losing three brothers in a house fire to the bombing, to numerous other, you know, calls, that affects, we take on everybody's trauma, you know, that respond on. It's just, if, if you do this job, you gotta have a heart, and with that heart, it gets stepped on with calls we make. And, uh, and I get emotional talking about, uh, what it took for me to get to that point to talk about it, because what it took was, um, me almost, you know, losing my family, my career, my life. Um, it took a lot. I was, um,everybody's rock bottom is different and I know what my rock bottom is and when I got there it was just, uh, I don't know. It was just for all the things I had done to my family and to myself and uh, to friends, to get to a point to where I thought I couldn't do any more damage to people, um, to find out that those same people were still there willing to help me was, uh, was a big impact on me. And actually speaking publicly about it, I don't know. I, uh, a friend of mine named, um, Jay Dobbins, he's a retired ATF agent. He's infiltrated the Hell's Angels and did a bunch of stuff, big time. He looks ferocious. He's a big ole teddy bear. Uh, he invited, I had never met the man, he invited me out to Arizona to speak at a little deal he was putting together, and I had never spoke in public about it. I'd done interviews since then, talk about kind of the spiral and the things I'd done and where I'd been. Um, but he invited me out there to speak, and so, uh, I mean, I don't have anything. I don't have any, like, little PowerPoint or nothing. I just get up there and tell my story. And some of the feedback that I got, uh, from other first responders and first responders' families that were there was really what kind of thought, I thought, you know, 'cause you always hear these sayings about, you know, "If you have a story you need to tell it." "Your darkness could be somebody else's light." You know, all this stuff, I used to go, "That's kind of high in the pie stuff," but when I saw it, that it affected my life, I thought, "Hey, there's something to that. It's okay to talk about it. It's okay to get up there and be vulnerable." Uh, and my whole point of me even speaking is to say, "You don't have to get to that point." But yeah, I share my journey. I share the fall. I share what I call the rise, and that was reaching out for help. I went to...
Julie Rose: Would you tell me about that, the reaching
out, reaching out for help? What, tell me about the, that moment, that day.
What, what did that feel like for you?
Chris Fields: I, um, had a little rough night one time. Me and, uh, my wife had a little, I wasn't living at home. We were separated for, like, 16 or 17 months.We had a not so good night conversation, so I decided to partake in some, my alcohol and the Xanax I was taking and all that. And, um, woke up the next morning, I remember laying there in this, my apartment in the living room. I thought, "Man, there is no way this is, this is my purpose." And I didn't think my purpose was getting to speak and do podcasts and all that. My purpose that I was in my mind saying what I should be doing is being a good father, a good husband, and a good friend, um, which I was failing at all three. So, I, I called my wife and just, she picked up the phone and she said, "What do you want?" And I said, "I wanna come home." And she said, "Come on." She didn't even hesitate. Uh, and she'll tell people she knew it wasn't Chris Fields she was dealing with. She tells people when she'd look in my eyes, it was just, like, blank. And, um, the marriage being where it is and being saved and all that is a kind of a bonus and a blessing because she'll tell people that really wasn't even her thought. She thought, "I don't know if we can ever get past this, but I want him healthy so he can be a dad." So, that was, that was really kind of her, you know, "I want him healthy to be around. I may not like him, but I want him healthy." And, uh, that's kind of when it, it started. I, uh, reached out, called our chaplain, went to a place, uh, in California called WCPR, West Coast Post-Traumatic Retreat, uh, was introduced to, uh, EMDR therapy. And I think what really helped me there, if you gimme a few minutes to tell this quick little story, uh, when we, when you first get to WCPR, I assume it's like what goes on at AA meetings and all that, where you stand up, introduce yourself, you know, and of course, here we had to stand up, introduce yourself, tell a little bit of your story. I stood up, told my story and thought, "Get some of that on you people. Like, y'all have no clue." This little rookie cop from LA stood up, 22, 23 years old I think she was, told her story and I was like, "Oh my gosh. I just stood up and told that story and think it's bad and what she went through?" Next guy stands up, tells his story, and her name was Megan, and me and Megan looked at each other like, "Wow, we just told our story thinking it's bad, listen to what." Man, it was just, it was that way around the entire room. So, that's when I kind of, it kind of just hit me like, "Okay, I am not alone in this, and I'm not the only one. Every emotion that I've ever felt on every call through my 31 year career," at that time 20 something year career, "was perfectly normal, perfectly valid." I have a friend who's a clinician, he's a retired cop from Virginia. Uh, he always says, "It's usually not the trauma that we experience, it's how we deal with it." So, that's when I just thought, "You know, everything I feel is perfectly normal and perfectly fine. It's just dealing with it is, uh, is what I gotta get figured out." And, uh, through EMDR therapy and all that kind of stuff, I did.
Julie Rose: And that involves a fair amount, as I understand it, of sort of being willing to sit with the really uncomfortable emotions, but also kind of revisit the traumatic experiences in a sort of empowering and coping way, right? I'm, I'm way oversimplifying the process, but,
Chris Fields: and what it, and, and I don't know enough about it 'cause I am still just an old, retired firefighter, so, you know, but all I know is it gives you the ability to talk about a traumatic event without experiencing those feelings that normally bring you to your knees, uh, so you can talk about it and process. It was just like, uh, I don't know. I wish I'd come up with a new saying, cliche, like, you know, getting that gorilla off your back or that weight off your shoulders to be able to talk about it and process it and, uh, deal with it and come out of there not feeling like I had to go get my Xanax, or, you know, have a drink or... Got back to work, got back to the fire station and the first thing I did was, uh, told everybody where I'd been, what I'd been through, what I'd done, and, uh, that was pretty empowering. So, I guess that was really maybe the start of saying, "Okay, it's okay to tell your story." And I always tell people, that's usually what I close with, "Man, if you've got a story, I don't care if you're telling it to one person or 1500 people. Uh, if you've got a story to tell, you need to tell it."
Julie Rose: Chris, thank you for sharing that, um, so vulnerably. Would you finally just tell us a bit about this state funded program, this agency that you now work for in Oklahoma that's come about in the last couple years?
Chris Fields: Yeah, it was started by a retired, uh, state trooper here in Oklahoma who's been down the same road. Um, It's called the Oklahoma First Responders Wellness Division. It's about, it's about mental health for first responders in the state, but it's, we take more of a holistic approach. We're all peer team members, we're all peer trained to do, uh, debriefings and stuff. But we have classes on mental health, uh, physical fitness, financial health, spiritual health and growth, how it all ties together. We offer, uh, what they call sleep therapy beds, these massage chairs, they can get so many, uh, sessions of counseling, and it's all free for first responders in the state of Oklahoma.
Julie Rose: Has it made a difference? Do you see it
de-stigmatizing the struggle?
Chris Fields: Uh, I would. Just came from the office a little bit ago and, and the director, Danny Long, we were, we were talking about, he was getting ready to go show the state how many people have, now, you know, not everybody's come to the office for a counseling session, or not everybody, but how many people have actually reached out to the, to the wellness division? It's, uh, it's staggering. They did a, a person we work with a clinician, works for Oklahoma State University, they have this family wellness deal, they did a survey in the state of Oklahoma amongst all first responders: law enforcement, fire, dispatch, uh, EMS. You know, and they listed everything from sleep issues to marital issues to, and it was the low number, but 8%, 8% said that they had contemplated, uh, ending their life within the last year. So, so that always tells us there's a need for it out there, and, uh, so yeah, I work with them along with a couple other nonprofits and, and I'm just, like I say, it's, I'm blessed to do it.
Julie Rose: Speaking of these other groups that you're
participating with, Chris, um, where can people find the work that you're doing
or find resources?
Chris Fields: Um, one of 'em is called Trauma behind the Badge. It's, uh, www.traumabehindthebadge.us. Our little cliche statement is, uh, "Motivation through tough conversations," and that's what we do. We get together, we travel, we speak together, and then a great nonprofit is, uh, Survive First, www.survivefirst.us, a nonprofit that takes the "No" out of first responders seeking help. I highly recommend looking both of 'em up and seeing what resources are available.
Julie Rose: Chris Fields is a retired Oklahoma City firefighter. He is a peer team member on the Oklahoma First Responders Wellness Division, and those groups he works with are Trauma Behind the Badge and Survive First. And if you or someone you know, a first responder or otherwise, is in crisis and needs support, the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is free, it's national, it's available 24/7. Just dial 988 to talk to someone. Chris Fields, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Chris Fields: Thank you, Julie. I appreciate it.
Julie Rose: And thank you for getting Uncomfy with us today. I am so glad that mental health is something we're getting more and more comfy talking about, but it's still really hard and scary to ask for help. I would love to hear how that's gone for you or someone you love. Send an email to uncomfy@byu.edu or find us on social media. We'd love to keep the conversation going. Uncomfy is a BYUradio podcast. Samuel Benson produces it, and the team includes Hyobin Kim and Sam Payne. Our theme music was composed by Kelsey Nay. I'm Julie Rose. Can't wait to get Uncomfy with you again next week.
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